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Discussion Starter #1
I came across a couple cams for sale and I am thinking about picked one up. The first is a Unused Hughes HER1418AL Cam. This is a reground Chrysler core from Hughes.
.520/.544 lift
214/218 duration @ .050
114 LSA
1400 - 5800 RPM
And the second is a New Mopar Performance R/T cam. I am running 1.7 RR's, M-1 intake manifold, Mopar PCM, Edelbrocker headers, High flow cats, Magnaflow mufflers, and true dual exhaust. Which would be the better cam to go with? Also how much of a PITA is it to remove and install the cam from the block? I know how it is gonna be to get to it but how does it actually come out and go back in?
 

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Im not sure on which cam would be better for you and I don't know if you can use your 1.7 rockers with either of those. You might wanna check that out. As far as a cam swap its relitively simple. Before you start, make sure you have the engine at TDC. Take off the valve covers,intake,rockers,pushrods,and lifters for the top half of the engine. Next start tearing apart the front half. The alternator,A/c compressor,The bracket that they bolt to,the crank pully/harmonic balancer behind it, and then the timing chain cover. once you have all that off you can unbolt the cam gear and take the timing chain off. you'll need a 2 arm puller to pull the crank gear off the crank. Now all you have to do is pull the cam out. Thread a long bolt into one of the three threads that hold the cam gear to the cam. This will allow you to pull the cam straight out without damaging any of your cam bearings. Just ease it straight out. Install the new cam in reverse order. When putting a new cam in you should cover that baby in a$$embly lube for startup/break in purposes. Be carefull to slide the cam in as straight as you can and never force it to prevent damage of the cam bearings. Have fun and good luck :bigthumb:
Also when you start it up for the first time, you should hold it at 2000 RPM's for I think 10 minutes before letting it come down to idle so the cam will develop a break in pattern so it doesn't prematurely wear.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I was thinking that the cam could be swapped out without removing the intake, rockers, lifters, and all of that good stuff. All well, if i pull all of that I can put my Mopar performacne lifter in too that I bought a few months ago.
 

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heck ya :bigthumb: And a new timing chain is a must
 

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Discussion Starter #5
On 2005-12-07 22:11, JustRamIt wrote:
heck ya :bigthumb: And a new timing chain is a must

HE has a New Mopar Performance double roller timing gear set that I am hoping includes the chani too.
 

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On 2005-12-07 22:16, Robert97dodge wrote:


HE has a New Mopar Performance double roller timing gear set that I am hoping includes the chani too.

Yeah the chain comes with the timing set. I'd like to build my motor up but its just a little 318. When this thing dies, There's gonna be a 408 in the future :naughty:
 

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On 2005-12-07 22:16, Robert97dodge wrote:


HE has a New Mopar Performance double roller timing gear set that I am hoping includes the chani too.

Are you watching that Ebay auction also??????? :D:
 

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Robert97: Unfortunately, I don't think you can install one of the above cams with the 1.7s. The roller rockers will amplify the effect of the cam, and could cause clearance/duration problems. Contact the vendor for your RR and see what he/she says.

When you are looking at cams, if good idle is a factor, try to stay with lower duration numbers (the time the valve is open). Also the lift should not exceed .510, any more than that and the idle quality goes way down plus you may run into clearance problem.

If you are looking at putting a cam in, and want some serious gains, you should also get a higher stall speed converter to allow the cam to idle at it's designed RPM. Usually a good low rpm high torque cam will idle about 1000-1300.

My father and I built the 360 he had in his 1979 Dodge B300 Van. Installed a Holley 750 4bbl, JC Whitney special headers, and a Competition Cams 'RV' cam. The cam gave massive amounts of low end torque, but we were always breaking motor mounts due to the idle being about 1300 and the stock stall speed on a TF727 converter being about 600. But that rusty POS van would get to 60 in 8 seconds.

edit: also, depending on mileage, you may or may not have to replace the cam bearings. It would be a good idea to feel the front most bearing with installing the new one to see what kinda shape it's in. That will give you and idication to the condition of the rest of the cam bearings. But, if I am installing a $300-$500 cam, for cheap insurance I will replace the cam bearings...might take a couple hours longer, but will be worth it.
You camshaft will come with break in instructions.

hope this helps some.
 

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chizzle is, basically, right, but I don't know about some of the information he posted.

Robert,
You SHOULD call Hughes to see if they'd recommend running that cam with 1.7 rockers. I'd have to believe the lift figures they quote for that camshaft, that you listed above, are with a 1.6 ratio rocker arm. With a 1.7, you're going to have much lift at the valve and, as chizzle said, you might run into valve-to-piston clearance problems. I don't know any of the specs on that Mopar camshaft, either.

To install the cam, you'll have to pull the intake, because you'll have to pull the lifters...there's no way around that. Also, another thing to note on that Hughes camshaft...if it's a re-ground core, the base circle of the lobes are probably going to be smaller which MAY require slightly longer pushrods, as when you go to a smaller base circle camshaft, the valvetrain geometry changes.

I'd pick up the phone and call Hughes...simple as that, and see what they say.

Duration and the LSA (lobe seperation angle) are going to effect the choppiness/lope of the camshaft more than anything. The more duration and the tighter the LSA, the rougher/choppier/lopier the idle will be and the more top-end power the camshaft will make. Lift is, to a degree, not a factor in idle quality. I don't think a good torque building cam will idle in the 1000-1300 rpm range. There's not reason the truck, with an aftermarket camshaft, shouldn't still idle in the 700-850 rpm range. In addition to the cam, though, like chizzle said, you might think about a different converter and stuff like having your computer flashed or a chip burnt.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
On 2005-12-08 03:40, LPD111 wrote:


Are you watching that Ebay auction also??????? :D:

No I found these somewhere else. Also the R/T cam is only $100 and the hughes cam is only $175. So i figured it maybe worth buying the R/T cam just to try it out but I dont want to put something in there that will cause problems.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Here is some info on the R/T cam if this helps out any.

260/264, 204/208 @ .050, .458/.467, 114 LSA
 

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With those specs on the R/T cam, I'd have to believe you can run 1.7 rockers with it, safely (no piston-to-valve clearance issues), given some of Hughes and KRC have listed combinations on stock shortblocks with camshafts with much more valve lift, as advertised. Given the duration @ .050" lift and LSA (114* is fairly "wide" for an aftermarket camshaft), it shouldn't idle too badly, either, and make decent torque.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
On 2005-12-08 08:23, WhiteKnight wrote:
What kinda torque are you expecting out of the RR and the cam??

Are you asking me or Zac? I have never had a vehicle with a cam and I wasnt even planning on getting one but I saw this one for sale and it seemed to be at a good price so I figured I would ask about it to see if it would help any.
 

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Robert,
Regardless of which cam you buy, if you buy one, I would strongly, strongly recommend you replace the valvesprings when you swap camshafts or, even, install the 1.7 rockers with the stock camshaft. There are tools you can rent to install valvesprings on cylinder heads that are installed on the engine. A set of valvesprings is $80-$150, depending on the quality of valvespring, for your application.

Again, I recommend you pick up the phone and call Hughes (or KRC) and run this same information by them and see what they say. It's a matter of a few minutes of your time and a few nickles' worth of a phone call.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
On 2005-12-08 08:33, SoulSurfer wrote:
Robert,
Regardless of which cam you buy, if you buy one, I would strongly, strongly recommend you replace the valvesprings when you swap camshafts or, even, install the 1.7 rockers with the stock camshaft. There are tools you can rent to install valvesprings on cylinder heads that are installed on the engine. A set of valvesprings is $80-$150, depending on the quality of valvespring, for your application.

Again, I recommend you pick up the phone and call Hughes (or KRC) and run this same information by them and see what they say. It's a matter of a few minutes of your time and a few nickles' worth of a phone call.

I talked to John mercedes at southeastperformance.com where I got my M-1 and RR's from and he said to stay away from the hughes cam. He said that they just get there cams from some other company that I have not even heard of. So i am not gonna be getting that one. Also you are saying just get a set of stock valve springs? The motor that all of this is going on only has 40K miles on it. I will see if I can find a set though if you think that it would be best. Also john didnt say much about the R/T cam. He didnt have time to talk alot because he was heading out the door to go to some meeting and he is gonna email me back later.
 

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Well, I don't know this John Mercedes fellow, and at that, I'm not going to question what he's saying. Having said that, though, and in my experience in performance engine "stuff", mainly in the late model Mustang market, I know a lot of shops will tell customers to stay away from "that guy's" products just to try to get the customer to buy from them. It's a matter of scare tactics to try to generate business for themself(ves). Is that what John Mercedes is doing? I don't know and I don't care to speculate.

Who is this other company that Hughes buys their cores from or has grind their camshafts? Truth of the matter is there aren't a whole lot of companies that grind camshafts...new cores or used cores. Just like Mopar Performance, GM Performance Parts or Ford Racing Performance Parts do not make/manufacture the bulk of the parts that are sold under their names or comes in their boxes. Camshafts are, for the most part, specialized...a lot of people, engine builders included, don't know the specifics of lobe designs, lobe seperation angles, centerlines, and, at that, a lot of people don't need or WANT to...they simply pick out parts to build an engine (the block, specific crankshaft, specific connecting rods, specific pistons, specific cylinder heads and intake manifold, etc.) and then call up somebody like Comp Cams, Crane Cams, Isky, CamMotion, etc., and feed all the referenced information to the cam company/cam grinder, along with the vehicle the engine is going in, the tranny in the vehicle, gearing and tire size, use of the vehicle (drag car, daily driver, trail rig, etc.) and the cam grinder will know how to grind the camshaft...how much lift, duration, overlap, valve timing events, etc....and in many cases when an automatic tranny is in the equation, the cam grinder will tell you how much stall speed is needed.

The bottom line is that I doubt Hughes Engines grinds its own camshafts...they probably source that part of their business out to a cam company like I mentioned above. While I don't know the first thing about John Mercedes or his business...if that's the case -> he's stating to stay away from Hughes because they farm out their camshaft grinding to a cam company, that seems like a pretty stupid reason to "avoid" a certain company's camshafts.
 

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On 2005-12-08 06:20, Robert97dodge wrote:


No I found these somewhere else. Also the R/T cam is only $100 and the hughes cam is only $175. So i figured it maybe worth buying the R/T cam just to try it out but I dont want to put something in there that will cause problems.

Ah ok, I saw this the other day on Ebay:

Dodge Dakota Performance R/T Camshaft Package

This auction is for a complete performance camshaft upgrade kit for any Dodge Dakota, Durango, or Ram with a 5.2L (318ci) or 5.9L (360ci) Magnum V8. It includes the following:
Racer Brown hydraulic roller camshaft:
200/206 .440/.440 110 (w/ 1.6 ratio rocker arms)
200/206 .468/.468 110 (w/ 1.7 ratio rocker arms)

-Stock hydraulic roller lifters
-Stock pushrods
-Timing chain kit
-Stock thrust plate, mounting bolts, and camshaft bolt

All of this equipment was used for less than 5000mi on my 2001 Dakota R/T. All of the parts have been stored in plastic with a film of oil for protection. Everything is in perfect condition. I labeled all of the lifters according to the cam lobe they were removed from. All of the pushrods are straight and true. I believe the timing chain kit is aftermarket, but I am not sure. The only marks on it read "4448675" and "37101C". This setup was on the vehicle when I purchased it, and I have since decided to upgrade to a "wilder" setup.
This would be a great upgrade over the stock setup, and should be fairly PCM-friendly (no guarantees on this, since it seems like every truck is slightly different). It will produce gains over most of the powerband, and will work great with some common bolt-ons such as a cold-air intake, throttle body, intake manifold, roller rockers, headers, and PCM. This kit will produce a fairly "sneaky" idle, and sounds much better than the stock setup.


Auction Item number: 8020234483
 

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The RT cam will work with the 1.7 RR's with the lift about 487/496, the duration will move up alittle. Not sure how to calulate the duration with the 1.7's but I know it will be longer.
The Hughes cam will have more low end torque with alittle to much lift, about 553/578. I think you would have valve to piston clearance problems.

With either cam or any aftermarket cam you will need to change valve springs. The stock spring are only good to about .430 of lift, the 1.7 rockers put them at their limit. The problem with springs for the Magnum heads is there is only a couple of choices without having to cut seats to work. Not too mention the 8mm valve stems.

My take on any reground cams, when they grind them for higher lift they have to take of the baseline get anything more. This may or may not cut beyond the hardened thicknest of the cam. I've heard from several different company is does.

Mopar Perfomance has there Cams ground by Comp Cams. There are alot of Mopar Speed Shops that have their Cams ground by Comp Cams because they know Chrysler engines. Racer Brown is also makes great Mopar Cams.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I just talked the guy again and he said that the power range of the R/T cam is 1,500 - 5,000 rpm. I think that I am gonna go ahead and get the R/T cam. I mean it deffinately cant hurt anyhthing so I might as well go ahead and do it.

Where should I go for valve springs? WHat brands and what do I ask for?
 
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