[marshmanjr]

I have an 82 Ram Charger, and many people have said that my bolt pattern does not match with normal Chargers. But the problem is i was downing down a hill one day at work and got sideways and another guy hit me and i have never seen this happen but he bent my axle shafts and snapped one axle. So my question is what is the type of axle in the back of Ram Chargers, isn't it a 9 1/4in. I know the front is a Dana 44 which on that one i broke a knuckle when we were towing it home. That was the most scariest site seeing one tire and then the other just falling sideways.

 

[wickedakota]

Your bolt pattern is probably the 5 on 5 1/2inch.I had to find brake drums for my rear 9 1/4 that is a 5 on 5 1/2 what a pain in the butt, but i found some. No one had them because its a odd bolt pattern.Your rear axle is probably a 9 1/4 like mine. I put these axles under my dakota and now i have to try to change the u-joints in the front axle. But i can't seem to get it apart. I have manual locking hubs and i took off the hubs but cant get the rotor off. Do you know how?

 

[marshmanjr]

dakota i sent you a private message

 

[79W-150]

Thats not necessarily true.... I thought I had 5X5 1/2 but I have 5X4 1/2... There is a difference. I have Dana 44 front and 9 1/4 rear. All you have to do to measure lug spacing is measure from the center of one lug to the the space between the two lug across from it. If its about 4-5" its 4 1/2"... if its between 5-6" its 5 1/2". It should read 4 1/2 or 5 1/2 not anything else, but to allow for a quick glance that'll tell you.

Good luck.

-Chris

 

[Dsertdog56]

Wow! never seen or heard of snapping a shaft like that. Must have been a perfect hit to do it! You didnt mention what your back gear cover looked like, if it looks like a stop sign, its a 9.25 rear ring, if its oval shaped its a 8.25 ring gear. 8.25s are lighter duty v-8 diffs, and can be broken easily, tho Mopar put them under a lot of vehicles in the mid 70s thru today. I have never broken one but Ive replaced many others for friends. I'd definitley upgrade if it were me, shouldnt have a problem finding a late model rear in a yard, trucks and ramchargers interchange.

 

[Ed]

On 2001-12-29 19:53, marshmanjr wrote:
I have an 82 Ram Charger, and many people have said that my bolt pattern does not match with normal Chargers. But the problem is i was downing down a hill one day at work and got sideways and another guy hit me and i have never seen this happen but he bent my axle shafts and snapped one axle. So my question is what is the type of axle in the back of Ram Chargers, isn't it a 9 1/4in. I know the front is a Dana 44 which on that one i broke a knuckle when we were towing it home. That was the most scariest site seeing one tire and then the other just falling sideways.

Dodge had two different bolt patterns (5 lug patterns)
Between 74 and 81 Dodge Ramchargers had Spicer (Not Dana) 44 front axles and mostly used 9.25" Rears. The Front axle was a full time only unit, and was a semi floating design. It did not have provisions for a lock out hub. And they were expensive to convert over to part time 4wd. The bolt pattern was a small 4.5 on 5 lug. It's not well suited for larger tires. From 82 to 92, Dodge switched to part time four wheel drive and began using Dana 44 axles up front. The Dana 44 had a larger 5.5 on 5 lug pattern. The rear bolt pattern was changed to match the front. Interestingly Ramchargers came with a Shift-on-the-fly option which included a Dana 44 with center axle disconnects.
When you look for new axles, make sure you get them for your generation of truck.
Ed

 

[tv_larsen]

On 2002-01-07 12:25, Ed wrote:
Dodge had two different bolt patterns (5 lug patterns)
Between 74 and 81 Dodge Ramchargers had Spicer (Not Dana) 44 front axles and mostly used 9.25" Rears. The Front axle was a full time only unit, and was a semi floating design. It did not have provisions for a lock out hub. And they were expensive to convert over to part time 4wd. The bolt pattern was a small 4.5 on 5 lug. It's not well suited for larger tires. From 82 to 92, Dodge switched to part time four wheel drive and began using Dana 44 axles up front. The Dana 44 had a larger 5.5 on 5 lug pattern. The rear bolt pattern was changed to match the front. Interestingly Ramchargers came with a Shift-on-the-fly option which included a Dana 44 with center axle disconnects.
When you look for new axles, make sure you get them for your generation of truck.
Ed

I'm sorry Ed, but you got a few facts off just a tad. Spicer IS Dana, same thing, all '72-'01 1/2 tons have a Dana 44 front end. "semi floating" doesn't apply to the front axle either, 1/2 ton rears are "semi floating" but the fronts are more like full-floaters. The '72-mid'74 front Dana 44's used drum brakes, manual hubs and a 5-5.5" bolt pattern. The mid'74-'79 used disc brakes, no-hubs (full-time), and 5-4.5" pattern. The '80-'84 used automatic hubs and 5-5.5" pattern. '85-'93 used no manual hubs (Center Axle Disconnect instead) and the 5-5.5" pattern. I believe every '80's RC that I have seen has had a 9.25" rear end.

 

[Ed]

On 2002-01-07 15:51, tv_larsen wrote:
I'm sorry Ed, but you got a few facts off just a tad. Spicer IS Dana, same thing, all '72-'01 1/2 tons have a Dana 44 front end. "semi floating" doesn't apply to the front axle either, 1/2 ton rears are "semi floating" but the fronts are more like full-floaters. The '72-mid'74 front Dana 44's used drum brakes, manual hubs and a 5-5.5" bolt pattern. The mid'74-'79 used disc brakes, no-hubs (full-time), and 5-4.5" pattern. The '80-'84 used automatic hubs and 5-5.5" pattern. '85-'93 used no manual hubs (Center Axle Disconnect instead) and the 5-5.5" pattern. I believe every '80's RC that I have seen has had a 9.25" rear end.

I believe my facts are quite correct. At the time Spicer distinguished itself seperate from Dana. The Spicer is a semi-floater. Unlike a Dana which is a full floater. A great way to tell a semi floater from a full floater is to look at the hub area. A full floater always has a hub protruding from the center. Inside is a spindle which the wheels roll on. On the Spicer semi floater, there isn't a hub protruding from the center. The axle has a flange which the wheel is attached to, just like a semi floating rear axle. A big difference, full vs. semi. You can yank out the axleshaft and drive without it with a full floater. It's impossible to drive with an axle out on a semi floater. AND you cannot pull out the axle shafts from older Dodge trucks (W/ Spicer 44s), and still drive it. I've worked on them many times...

 

[tv_larsen]

The exact definition of a semi floater is the axle shaft supports the weight of the vehicle. Now if you're are talking about just the front 44 on a '74-'79 Dodge, you're right they are more like a semi-floater, my apologies. However, the pre-'74 and '80-'93 are definitly full-floating.

As far as the spicer/dana thing, yeah well, GM distinguishes GMC from Chevy, but they're the same thing. I'm curious how you distingish Danas from Spicers. Are you simply refering to the lousy hub design of the full-time 44's or is there something else? Especially since the center sections are identical?

 

[Ed]

On 2002-01-09 17:03, tv_larsen wrote:
The exact definition of a semi floater is the axle shaft supports the weight of the vehicle. Now if you're are talking about just the front 44 on a '74-'79 Dodge, you're right they are more like a semi-floater, my apologies. However, the pre-'74 and '80-'93 are definitly full-floating.

As far as the spicer/dana thing, yeah well, GM distinguishes GMC from Chevy, but they're the same thing. I'm curious how you distingish Danas from Spicers. Are you simply refering to the lousy hub design of the full-time 44's or is there something else? Especially since the center sections are identical?

Larsen;
Along time ago Dana and Spicer were two very different companies, but they merged as Dana Corp. However Spicer still exists in many divisions, such as the Spicer axle division. (within Dana) Spicer axles is most notabily remembered as making axles for military trucks such as the Dodge Power wagons of the '40 thru '60s and is the current division making axles for big rigs.
On '74 to '80 1/2 ton Dodge W150s and Ramchargers, the axle tags read "Spicer" They weren't very different from the Dana 44 (Both even used '44' model number) And they are interchangable in many parts. However these particular Spicer 44s came with semi floating axleshafts. This isn't unique for Spicer, many of their old military axles were also semi-floaters.

Today, The only difference between Chevy and GMC is if it has nine letters or three letters stamped on the grille. But a long time ago, GM makes, Pontiac, Buick, Oldsmobile, and Cadillac, did not offer trucks. GM decided to make a 'corporate' truck combining parts of the different companies of GM. GMC's used Chevy truck chassis & bodies, but at times used Pontiac engines and trannys.

Ed

 

[tv_larsen]

ED,
I believe that you have made my point for me.

Dana is the name of the parent company. It used to be called Spicer, but Spicer was also a division, thats why the renamed the parent company "Dana". Salisbury is actually the division that used to build the axles. In 1970 Salisbury was absorbed into the Spicer division. Therfore the axles after that were built by Spicer, to this day. My point is that ALL Dana 44s, 60s, 70s, ect. Were technically built by Spicer, but that IS Dana. Simply because the hub design changed doesn't mean it was a new division.

 

[Ed]

On 2002-01-10 10:17, tv_larsen wrote:
ED,
I believe that you have made my point for me.

Dana is the name of the parent company. It used to be called Spicer, but Spicer was also a division, thats why the renamed the parent company "Dana". Salisbury is actually the division that used to build the axles. In 1970 Salisbury was absorbed into the Spicer division. Therfore the axles after that were built by Spicer, to this day. My point is that ALL Dana 44s, 60s, 70s, ect. Were technically built by Spicer, but that IS Dana. Simply because the hub design changed doesn't mean it was a new division.

Hello Larsen;
What I am getting at is that, there is a difference. OK so what difference is it, Spicer or Dana, are the same company. You said it yourself, one is the parent company, the other is a division of that parent company. But the company itself makes this difference. It's like arguing the difference between Chevy and GMC or Ford and Mercury or even Dodge and Plymouth. Yet each sells those products under their market brand name.
Actually the Spicer is different because only their axles came with that semi floater design. None of Dana's other axles are designed like this. (Especially those under the Dana name brand) The difference between the two 44s, is Dana uses full floating axleshafts, while it's Spicer division uses a semi floating axle design. The offical name of this particular semi floating axle is known as the "Spicer 44" NOT the "Dana 44" even though Dana owns Spicer.
Both have distinguished themselves further, now Spicer primarily makes axles for heavy vehicles, while Dana continues it's line of axle products for cars and light duty trucks.
Ed

 

[Ed]

On 2002-01-14 16:51, Anonymous wrote:
In 1974 Dodge introduced 'Fulltime" 4 wheel drive using a 5 on 4.5 in. bolt pattern and a Dana 44 hubless front axle....You could also still get the "Part time " 4 wheel drive which used a Dana 44 axle with lockout hubs, 5 on 5.5in. bolt pattern and a gear driven (NP 205) transfer case. From 1975 through 1979 they offered only the"Fulltime" 4 wheel drive....ALL of these axles are full floating. Full floating means that without having the drive axles installed you can still support the weight of the vehicle and still roll it, tow it, etc. Semi floating axles on the other hand means that the vehicle is supported on the actual drive axle....Edited for brevity

The axle used on fulltime 4x4s with the 5 on 4.5 bolt was a SEMI floater. As I've said before. An easy way to tell apart a SF from a FF is to simply look at the hub area. If it has a hub protruding from the center (It doesn't matter if it has a locking or fulltime lock out hub) It is a FF axle. Thats because the hub, within, contains the spindle and usually a pair of bearings. Without the hub, it would be impossible for the spindle to exist inside. The tire and wheel assembly rolls on this spindle. The axleshaft only transmits power to turn the wheels but the spindle supports the vehicle's weight. You can remove the axleshaft and the wheel assembly will still be mounted to the spindle, and therefore, you can still drive or roll the vehicle. Theres a reason why those full time axles were hubless. They didn't have a spindle within. The outer shaft was attached to a FLANGE, therefore it was a semi floater. All SF axles contain a flange which the wheel assy. attaches to. The axle therefore supports the vehicle's weight and provides power to turn the wheels.
Several years ago, back in the 80s there were several aftermarket companies which produced full time to part time conversions. Most kits contained lock out hubs and a device to lock out the spider gears for the T-case (All 70's Ford Chevy and Dodge fulltime trucks were usually equipped with NP 203 T-cases) However the Dodge PT kits were much more expensive because you HAD to convert the axleshafts from SF to FF. And change out the knuckles.
You may run into an older Dodge with FF axles, thats because the semi floaters were not very popular, and it was common to either convert or swap out the axles. But from the factory, they were originally equipped with Spicer 44 semi floating axles.
Ed

 

[JasonB]

So what exactly would you call the new Dodge Ram 44 axles, SF or FF?

The I know a true FF lets you slide the axle shafts out without removing the entire hub assembly and a semi floater can't be driven on without the stub/outer shaft.

Now, since the new D44's can run without the stub/axle shafts, but you have to pull the entire hub assembly to remove them and have not lcokout hubs, what type is it? Most folks tend to think of it as a SF, but is it really?

 

[Ed]

On 2002-01-16 13:28, JasonB wrote:
So what exactly would you call the new Dodge Ram 44 axles, SF or FF?

The I know a true FF lets you slide the axle shafts out without removing the entire hub assembly and a semi floater can't be driven on without the stub/outer shaft.

Now, since the new D44's can run without the stub/axle shafts, but you have to pull the entire hub assembly to remove them and have not lcokout hubs, what type is it? Most folks tend to think of it as a SF, but is it really?

What I said, was, the full floater has a spindle. Lock out hubs are irrelevent. I'm talking about the metal hub, which on most axles looks like a can protruding from the center (Between the lug nuts). The axleshaft will pass thru a hole in the center of the spindle and either bolt to the wheel assembly, like in a Dana 60 rear, or engage splines and be clipped on, like a typical Dana 44 front axle. The spindle makes it possible to roll with or without the axleshaft in place. (It doesn't matter if dissasembly of the hub is required) Another way of saying it would be to say that FF axles will have a spindle, SF will not.

Ed

 

[JasonB]

I am just asking only becuase when I replaced the hubs on my 97 1500 with the Dana44 the hubs bolted to the knuckle and the stub shaft used splines to engage and turn the hub, which holds the wheel. The stub shaft was "held" in the hub with a hub nut.

There is no "can" protruding between the lugsnuts, but I can drive on the hubs without the axle shaft in place.

So is this system a FF or SF axle is all I want to know. It sounds more like a FF but everyone seems to call it an SF setup.
Basically, if the axle holds the wheel, it is SF but if the hub holds the wheel it is FF, correct?

So then the 9.25" rear axle is a SF and the front (most fronts are FF anyway right) is a FF.

 

[does it matter]

this was taken from Dynatracs website. i think they would know their axles!

Full-Floating vs. Semi-Floating

Any drive axle must be capable of performing two functions: Support the weight of the vehicle safely and transmit power to the wheels for propulsion. By design, all steering (front) drive axles are full-floating, but rear drive axles may be semi-floating or full-floating.

this website will also clearify somethings.

http://www.off-roadweb.com/archives/tech/1201_tech02.shtml

 

[Ed]

Jason;
It's hard to determine which type of axle you have. I have not had the 'pleasure' of taking apart a Dana 44 in a newer Ram. I made several attempts to find a picture or diagram of your axle, online, and I have not found one. There are several possibilities, which your axle could be. It can be a type of full floater which the vehicle's weight is supported on anything other than the axleshaft. Normally the weight is supported on a spindle which is bolted to the steering knuckle, but it could be possible that the wheel assy. can be fastened to the knuckle by other means, such as a bearing.
It could be a semi floater, but this is not likely because semi floaters support the weight of the vehicle on the axleshafts, and you were able to drive without the axleshaft in place. I did read that on Dodge Rams with D-44s that it's possible to drive without the axles in place but that it would also lead to early wheelbearing failure. I do not know how true that comment is.
There are two other possible explainations. There seems to be other types of 'floating' axles. Non floating and 3/4 floating. These refer to how the bearing are installed. On non floating axles, the bearings are pressed onto both ends of the axleshaft, therefore neither side 'floats', and a 3/4 floater seems to be very similar in appearance to a full floater.

Ed

On 2002-01-16 16:30, JasonB wrote:
I am just asking only becuase when I replaced the hubs on my 97 1500 with the Dana44 the hubs bolted to the knuckle and the stub shaft used splines to engage and turn the hub, which holds the wheel. The stub shaft was "held" in the hub with a hub nut.

There is no "can" protruding between the lugsnuts, but I can drive on the hubs without the axle shaft in place.

So is this system a FF or SF axle is all I want to know. It sounds more like a FF but everyone seems to call it an SF setup.
Basically, if the axle holds the wheel, it is SF but if the hub holds the wheel it is FF, correct?

So then the 9.25" rear axle is a SF and the front (most fronts are FF anyway right) is a FF.

 

[Ed]

Shawn;
I agree with the statement, except the part which says ALL front axles are FF. Now thats true for Dynatrac, they only sell FF front axles. I have just mentioned higher up in this topic that during the 70s Dodge used semi floating Spicer 44 axles on their full time 4x4s. Before that, all Dodge military Power Wagons were also equipped with Spicer semi floating front axles.

Full time front axles became standard equipment because they were stronger, and could be made lighter without loss of strength, and they were safer. One big advantage for FF was the ability to have a means to engage and disengage the axleshaft from the hub flange, (via a lock-out hub) making it possible for true part time 4wd. This is impossible for a semi floater unless there is a conversion to FF.

With the introduction of all wheeldrive, and CAD systems, , semi floaters are making a come back. There is no longer a need to disengage the axleshafts from the hub flange. AWD works much like full time 4wd except they are capable of constant use on pavement. Since the axles are always engaged to the hub, there is no need to use a FF axles. Many CAD systems make use of SF axles, but engage 4wd by locking in two halves of a common shaft. The axles still are permantly engaged to the wheels. Although the means of CAD engagement is failure prone, CAD is reported to be stronger than lock-out hubs. Currently SF axles of these types are IFS.
Ed

On 2002-01-16 18:49, shawn bentley wrote:
this was taken from Dynatracs website. i think they would know their axles!

Full-Floating vs. Semi-Floating

Any drive axle must be capable of performing two functions: Support the weight of the vehicle safely and transmit power to the wheels for propulsion. By design, all steering (front) drive axles are full-floating, but rear drive axles may be semi-floating or full-floating.

this website will also clearify somethings.

http://www.off-roadweb.com/archives/tech/1201_tech02.shtml

 

[JasonB]

Here is how the late model Ram D44 works (from my soon to be posted hub replacement Tech article):

You can see how/where the hub assembly attaches to the knuckle

Here is the back side of the hub assebly and you can see the bolts holes to hold teh hub to the knuckle and the splines for the stub shaft

Here is the front of the hub that holds teh rotor and wheel