First off, im no engine tech, I just picked up my truck today during lunch from the local Dodge dealership. This was the third time in for the same thing. After the truck is good and hot (15 min of driving) the engine at 2000-2500 will knock. It does it worse with 87 octane than 93, if you put 8 gallons or so of 93 in with an Injector treatment it is even better, Dodge tells me there is nothing they can do for it, I have a feeling they dont drive it long enought to get it to make the noise, I drove with the mechanic on the 2nd trip and made the noise appear, he said it was just the tires. Today when i picked up the truck the service guy made me so made i wanted to rip his head off, lucky for him he was at lunch, on the ticket he put "UNABLE TO REPAIR, GIVEN CURRENT CONFIGURATION" Maybe the valves need adjusting?? Help Please...
360 V8 Engine rattle/knock
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Joined
·
12,729 Posts
Sounds like the infamous 360 ping/knock problem. Jsut don't let them flash your computer as you may get some performance drop.
It could also be the intake belly pan gasket leak that can show up. Do you notice if you loose oil? The simplest check is to look downteh TB and see if you can see oil or sludge inthe intake near the runners. Other simple check is to remove teh PCV valve with the motor running and check for pressure or vacuum with your hand over the hole.
It could also be the intake belly pan gasket leak that can show up. Do you notice if you loose oil? The simplest check is to look downteh TB and see if you can see oil or sludge inthe intake near the runners. Other simple check is to remove teh PCV valve with the motor running and check for pressure or vacuum with your hand over the hole.
Joined
·
969 Posts
First of all the mecahnic that said the knock was the tires is on crack! There are many possible things that could cause the problem: Overadvanced timing, detonation, too much carbon (unburned fuel), compression ratio too high. Its sounds like it could be too much carbon deposits in the block cause a 93 octane fuel leaves less carbon cause it burns better. There is a tool to use that looks through the spark plug hole into the block to see if there is too much carbon so you dont have to dissasemble the engine down to the block. Thats my best bet.
Is it possible that with that heavy of a truck with those big tires on it you are causing a big load on the engine which is causing it to ping and need to run with a better fuel? This is the same type of theory were is says in the manual that if you are towing a heavy load you should step up to a better grade of fuel to avoide detonation.
just a thought.
just a thought.
Joined
·
3,961 Posts
the timing cant be over advanced, hell it can even be adjusted unless you have a performance pcm. you could have carbon deposits that are built up in the combustion chamber which makes the pinging noise. the carbon stays glowing hot so when the piston is coming up with the mixture it ignites it before the plug does. the carbon can also raise the compression ratio by gunking it up and making the combustion chamber smaller and thus raising your C.R. we all know that a high C.R. requires a higher octane. i know dodge says no, but have you tried any of that techron stuff? like jason says the blown intake gasket will screw things up like that also. if they find that the gaskit is bad make sure they replace the O2 sensors also because those things will be all carboned up and may not read properly.
from all that i read the pinging thing dodge never really found an answer to.
from all that i read the pinging thing dodge never really found an answer to.
Joined
·
808 Posts
i know when i pull my boat sometimes i have to run 89 octane or it will ping, but this doesnt happen all the time. the first time it happened i thought i had bad gas but now i know its more commom. i used to pull a trailer full of quads with my old 360 ram and it never pinged once.
I do have a air-raid throttle body spacer and i have been running the jet stage II chip for about 9 months, i noticed a dried substance maybe oil under the throttle body spacer, on top where the intake bolts down, does that give anyone any more clues? also i have taken the jet chip off, it is as bad with the chip as without.
Joined
·
3,961 Posts
you can probaly try and take that spacer off and just bolt the TB back down with a new gasket. you could have a leak around the spacer maybe causing the PCM to think its running rich and so it leans it out, which would cause your ping.
Biginuf,
You have to run that chip with a 180 thermostat and with 91 or better. If you are having a problem with out it you are probably running way lean which means you may have an intake leak at that spacer and are getting too much air.
_________________
2001 Ram 1500 Off-Road
Volant Cold Air Intake
Gibson Headers
Jet Stage II chip
Custom FlowMaster Exhaust
Mopar Performance Roller Rockers
TransGo Shift kit w/ Amsoil Synthetic ATF
Monster Stereo System
You have to run that chip with a 180 thermostat and with 91 or better. If you are having a problem with out it you are probably running way lean which means you may have an intake leak at that spacer and are getting too much air.
_________________
2001 Ram 1500 Off-Road
Volant Cold Air Intake
Gibson Headers
Jet Stage II chip
Custom FlowMaster Exhaust
Mopar Performance Roller Rockers
TransGo Shift kit w/ Amsoil Synthetic ATF
Monster Stereo System
Joined
·
2 Posts
Totally different platform, but hear me out.
The LS1 that comes in all the vettes/trans ams/camaros has a simialar issue. I tried tons of things from gas, to the mass air, EGR, etc for my car buy what worked best for me was dropping to a colder range plug. The timing is not adjustable on these vehicles either, so there aren't many options. My problem was most noticable during the summer, (I live in Texas) but dropping the plug heat range helped ALOT. I found out through LOTS of dyno sessions that I was losing about 25 RWHP from the computer adding knock retard when the pinging occured. Once the ping was gone, my power was back. This is something that is fairly easy to do, and if it works for you, its way less stress than fighting with the dealer, etc. In all but the most SEVERE cases with these cars, changing out the plugs did the trick. Good luck.
FYI, SEVERAL people fought this to the letter with GM for these types of cars. I am pretty sure that Dodge will take the same stance that GM did. They claim that this is normal under certain conditions and would do nothing in MOST cases for the owners. I have heard of some folks getting extended warranties at GM's expense, but for the most part, people just deal with it, or make minor changes like plugs, to compensate.
The LS1 that comes in all the vettes/trans ams/camaros has a simialar issue. I tried tons of things from gas, to the mass air, EGR, etc for my car buy what worked best for me was dropping to a colder range plug. The timing is not adjustable on these vehicles either, so there aren't many options. My problem was most noticable during the summer, (I live in Texas) but dropping the plug heat range helped ALOT. I found out through LOTS of dyno sessions that I was losing about 25 RWHP from the computer adding knock retard when the pinging occured. Once the ping was gone, my power was back. This is something that is fairly easy to do, and if it works for you, its way less stress than fighting with the dealer, etc. In all but the most SEVERE cases with these cars, changing out the plugs did the trick. Good luck.
FYI, SEVERAL people fought this to the letter with GM for these types of cars. I am pretty sure that Dodge will take the same stance that GM did. They claim that this is normal under certain conditions and would do nothing in MOST cases for the owners. I have heard of some folks getting extended warranties at GM's expense, but for the most part, people just deal with it, or make minor changes like plugs, to compensate.
Do you have reformulated gas in that area with mtbe in it? we have a 2000 that would ping and knock when loaded down, and we talked to the dealer and the mechanic asked about using reformulated so we found a station that doesn't sell it, filled up a few times, and what a difference.
This sounds very familiar.
Mine does the same.
I've got a few theories, the plenum-leak is one, and I'm investigating this further.
One thing I will say, and not be to mean, but to be supportive: Join the club.
LOTS of rams/Daks do this. So much that there must be one or two design flaws contributing to it.
On an engine that DOESN'T have the plenum-pan gasket leak, it's usually heat related.
People often use a 180 t-stat (you will lose a hair of mileage, but given your trucks size, you won't notice or care) to start with.
Also, people run lower temp plugs. I noticed that it's worse at part-throttle, which means too lean and therefore too hot inside the cylinders when then chip is running the engine in "closed-loop" mode.
So, we need to focus on keeping the cylinders as cool as we can when the chip wants to run in the most likely range to experience ping (14.7:1 Air/Fuel ratio).
My plan is to do the following:
0) check the plug-wire routing
1) Rule out the plenum pan gasket leak
2) Switch cylinders 1-4 to the next range lower plug
3) Switch cylindrs 5-8 to the next range down from that. I'll explain below
4) Do an ignition tune-up (cap/rotor/wires)
5) Switch to a 180 thermostat (Stant makes a good one)
6) Switch the coolant to 25% Ethylene Glycol A/F, and add Watter Wetter from Red Line.
7) Switch the radiator cap to a 20lb unit for a caddy, Beamer or Benz (they should all fit).
Doing all these, I should get better performance out of the engine, as it can shed sylinder heat better, and ignite the fuel when it wants to, not when the fuel wants to.
I also plan on slowly doing it one step at a time, until things stop. But I'll probably go the whole route, so that I handle the hot summers here better (100* isn't uncommon, and it's a black truck).
One of the really good articles on this problem is:
http://www.dodgeram.org/tech/gas/Trouble/ping.htm
Keep us posted, and keep it away from the dealer, if you find it's the plenum gasket, then let them deal with it if you're under warranty (it requires pulling the whole intake off the engine... Not exactly an afternoon's job).
BTW, I'm not an expert on this, but I've been doing research off and on, but it's cold/wet right now, so my truck hasn't been pinging much at all, which tends to reduce my need to get it fixed. Come summer, and lugging up the hills at 2500 rpm, it'll come back, and I'll start getting p*ssed... And then fix it for good.
But I'm investigating the wires and the plenum-pan first.
Mine does the same.
I've got a few theories, the plenum-leak is one, and I'm investigating this further.
One thing I will say, and not be to mean, but to be supportive: Join the club.
LOTS of rams/Daks do this. So much that there must be one or two design flaws contributing to it.
On an engine that DOESN'T have the plenum-pan gasket leak, it's usually heat related.
People often use a 180 t-stat (you will lose a hair of mileage, but given your trucks size, you won't notice or care) to start with.
Also, people run lower temp plugs. I noticed that it's worse at part-throttle, which means too lean and therefore too hot inside the cylinders when then chip is running the engine in "closed-loop" mode.
So, we need to focus on keeping the cylinders as cool as we can when the chip wants to run in the most likely range to experience ping (14.7:1 Air/Fuel ratio).
My plan is to do the following:
0) check the plug-wire routing
1) Rule out the plenum pan gasket leak
2) Switch cylinders 1-4 to the next range lower plug
3) Switch cylindrs 5-8 to the next range down from that. I'll explain below
4) Do an ignition tune-up (cap/rotor/wires)
5) Switch to a 180 thermostat (Stant makes a good one)
6) Switch the coolant to 25% Ethylene Glycol A/F, and add Watter Wetter from Red Line.
7) Switch the radiator cap to a 20lb unit for a caddy, Beamer or Benz (they should all fit).
Doing all these, I should get better performance out of the engine, as it can shed sylinder heat better, and ignite the fuel when it wants to, not when the fuel wants to.
I also plan on slowly doing it one step at a time, until things stop. But I'll probably go the whole route, so that I handle the hot summers here better (100* isn't uncommon, and it's a black truck).
One of the really good articles on this problem is:
http://www.dodgeram.org/tech/gas/Trouble/ping.htm
Keep us posted, and keep it away from the dealer, if you find it's the plenum gasket, then let them deal with it if you're under warranty (it requires pulling the whole intake off the engine... Not exactly an afternoon's job).
BTW, I'm not an expert on this, but I've been doing research off and on, but it's cold/wet right now, so my truck hasn't been pinging much at all, which tends to reduce my need to get it fixed. Come summer, and lugging up the hills at 2500 rpm, it'll come back, and I'll start getting p*ssed... And then fix it for good.
But I'm investigating the wires and the plenum-pan first.
BottleFedT/A do you belong to Camaroz28.com? Its a camaro/firebird website if you aren't familiar with it.
I used to have a 1996 Z-28 that had alotta work (383, suspension, rollcage, etc..) and posted under the name z28camkid on there.
Just wondering cause you're the first F-Body guy I've seen on here.
-Chris
I used to have a 1996 Z-28 that had alotta work (383, suspension, rollcage, etc..) and posted under the name z28camkid on there.
Just wondering cause you're the first F-Body guy I've seen on here.
-Chris
Joined
·
4,051 Posts
Hey 79W-150,
You move to arizona and forget that I in NJ has a 96 camaro??? hmmm I see how u roll.... no actually nice seeing ya back on...
You move to arizona and forget that I in NJ has a 96 camaro??? hmmm I see how u roll.... no actually nice seeing ya back on...
Ohh my bad dude.. lol I didn't forget you. Its just that I seem to remember someone on teh Z28 boards I used to belong to had the ID bottlefedta (or somethin real close)... was wondering if he was that person.
Its good to be back online again. I've gotta get my 4wd back (lost a Ujoint 3 hours into the trip and tore the slipjoint off with it). So i had to unbolt the rest of my front driveshaft putting my alltime 4wd into 2wd. Wasn't really sure how well that would work cause i'm not all that familiar with Dodge drivetrain, but it seems to be working great (heck, it made it out here from Maryland!)
:
Later guys,
-Chris
Its good to be back online again. I've gotta get my 4wd back (lost a Ujoint 3 hours into the trip and tore the slipjoint off with it). So i had to unbolt the rest of my front driveshaft putting my alltime 4wd into 2wd. Wasn't really sure how well that would work cause i'm not all that familiar with Dodge drivetrain, but it seems to be working great (heck, it made it out here from Maryland!)
:Later guys,
-Chris
First: I have a 100,000 6 year warrenty through an outside company not Chrysler. So I Dropped the truck off last night, service tech was nice to my face. Today he calls me and tells me that he got the warrenty company to cover the intake plenum gasket for me(like he did me a huge favor) but... because the truck was so tall it was taking them longer to do the gasket install so he would have to charge me an additional hour to hour-and-half of labor to cover the extra time, because he couldnt call the warrenty company and tell them the truck was lifted. Also the warrenty company wasnt covering the install of the fouled plugs and clogged plenum gasket which are directly linked to the plenum gasket, I knew they were bad too and I could change them myself easily and pretty cheap, but thats not the point, they are directly related to the other problem. Should have been covered. So we argued over the phone a little and them finally we agreed that I would pay the extra labor cost if he did the plugs for free. I still lose, but not as much. Next time the lift comes off when it goes in for service. Also I was thinking of giving the guy a 12 pack of beer that is tainted with exlax, and thanking him.
I pick the truck up tomorrow after work, I let you know how it goes.
I pick the truck up tomorrow after work, I let you know how it goes.
Biginuf
my 99 1/2 ton with 318 experienced similar problems and when it was under the factory waranty I took it to the dealer several times. first they said it was a intake manifold leak but that didnt fix it. the shop manager told me to change my plugs so I put in some bosch platinum plugs. this only helped for a little while. the last time I took it in the shop manager told me for some of the 98 and 99 models a new computer module was available to correct the pinging. the new module seems to have fixed it. also the way the factory routed the plug wires leads to cross fire.
my 99 1/2 ton with 318 experienced similar problems and when it was under the factory waranty I took it to the dealer several times. first they said it was a intake manifold leak but that didnt fix it. the shop manager told me to change my plugs so I put in some bosch platinum plugs. this only helped for a little while. the last time I took it in the shop manager told me for some of the 98 and 99 models a new computer module was available to correct the pinging. the new module seems to have fixed it. also the way the factory routed the plug wires leads to cross fire.
I got my truck back today, Its better but it still pings/knocks not nearly as bad now though, Dodge replaced the intake plenum gasket and I replaced the badly clogged PCV valve, tomorrow after work ill hit the plugs, I bought bosch plantinum's they were cheap 1.99 each anyone had probs with them? What do they come gapped at? .044? What is the recommended gap? .040?? They wanted to do an injector cleaning for $110 dollars what excatly are they doing when they clean the injectors?? I also got some injector cleaner that you mix with gas, Im gonna try it, STP makes it. Maybe a few loads of that through the injectors will help some. What else have I missed?
I am running the bosch platinum plugs. I have had them in for about 10,000 miles. Pulled a few plugs when a buddy of mine did a compresion leak down test on it. (there was nothing wrong with the motor we were just bored.) the plugs still looked great. cannot recall what they came gapped at but I gapped mine at .040. the injector cleaning that I have seen shops do consists of a presurized canister that contains a cleaner and some sort of fuel. they cut of your regular fuel supply and hook up the canister to a fuel line and let the motor run off the canister untill it is empty. I think that running a few bottles of injector cleaner in your tank will accomplish the same thing
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
