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low gear 727

Discussion in 'Dodge 4x4' started by SalvagExpert, Nov 18, 2004.

  1. SalvagExpert

    SalvagExpert
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    i remeber seeing a company a while back that sold lower gear kits for the 727 automatic trans...



    anyone know who makes them?



    im having my 727 rebuilt and wanna see what the lower gear set consist of and if its worth it. i know it had a decently lower first gear and a slightly lower second.



    but cant find it
     

  2. ZacD

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    I think what you're talking about is a "kit" that many people sell (ATI, Art Carr, Turbo Action, Fairbanks, TCI, etc.) that uses a 2.74 low/first gear out of a Torqueflite 999 (modified 904, basically). I don't know that anybody makes a different ratio 2nd gear, though. If you look any of those aforementioned companies up, I betcha they all sell a "special low ratio" kit for a 727 that uses that gear. A lot of these companies like to make folks think it's something they've engineered, themselves, er something, but it's basically one guy's (year ago) project that was started years ago. I've seen, drag cars (kinda grew up around that stuff) in certain classes where you had to run specific types of transmissions. I.E. Ford Fun Weekend...for Street Outlaw, years ago, you HAD to run a Ford transmission (i.e. C4 or C6) and couldn't run a Powerglide, if you wanted to run an automatic. Guys figured out how to make the low gear set out of a Torqueflight 999 work in a C6 Ford transmission to give them that extra bit of grunt out of the hole/off the line, etc., etc.
     

  3. mondtster

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    so would this work on the newer 42 RH to 46 RE? The lighter duty 42 RH (A500) had a lower 1st gear like the old A904's did.



    I have been wondering about this for some time now and I really think this would help our trucks out quite a bit if it would work.
     
  4. ZacD

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    mondster,

    I dunno. As most of us know, the 42RE is, I guess, a computer controlled or hybrid (partially computer controlled and partially hydraulically controlled) version of the A500, or an updated version of the A500, which is a transmission that is based of the "old" A904. The A500 shares many of the same internals as an A904, except is has an overdriven unit added to the @ss/back of it. The same is true of the A518/46RE/47RE (and maybe 48RE??? I know nothing about tht tranny), in that it shares a lot of internals with the "old" A727, or is basically derived from the 727, except it has an overdrive unit added onto the back of it, as well.



    I'll call my old @ss (dad) this evening and ask him about some of this stuff. I grew up around his transmission shops. While I have a "fair" bit of knowledge and experience in mechanics (automatics, manuals, transfer cases, differentials, engines, fabbing up sheot, welding, etc.), I don't hold a candle to what he knows. If I knew half the stuff he's probably forgotten, I'd probably be twice as intelligent as I am today (I don't declare myself to be intelligent, by the way). Anyways, he knows a great deal more about what works with what, transplanting guts from this tranny to that tranny, etc., etc. I removed, reinstalled, and rebuilt trannies (as well as rear ends, engines, etc., etc.), pretty much all my life (or since I was probably 10 or so), but it was generally along the lines of rebuilding units that came out of daily driven customer cars, building T-5s, hot rod C4 Fords, hot rod AOD Fords (I was big into the 5.0/4.6 Mustang scene for a while from the age of 17 up through a few years ago), and sheot like that. Long story short...I'll call and see what he's got to say.
     
  5. mondtster

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    Sweet, it has been something I have wondered for a while. At one point in time I was actually considering swapping over to the 42RE from my 46RE to take advantage of the lower 1st gear, but wasn't sure how durable the tranny would be since it would be in my tow vehicle.



    The 42RE and RH seems to work fairly well in the V8 Grand Cherokees, but they aren't rated or intended to tow as much as even a 1/2 ton Ram either.



    If this 1st gear swap is a viable option, I'll definitely do it when my tranny needs a rebuild.
     
  6. SalvagExpert

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    sure sure. take over my post with your fancy gismo electriciminal transmissions problems why dont you....
     
  7. ZacD

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    Sorry Salvage...



    I'll try to stay on point. I would think my first response is about all the more I can offer in response to your question. A Torqueflite 999 first gear ratio is like 2.74:1, which is a bit deeper than a 904 or 727's first gear, but I don't know about the second gear changes. Like I said, most of this stuff was "developed," for lack of better words, by the drag racing community. You might call or check out Performance Automatic, or one of the companies I mentioned earlier.
     
  8. Madd Ramm

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    Not to continue the hijack, but DO NOT go to a 42RE!!!! They will not last in the back of a Ram at all!!!!!! I have a 46RE and a 42RE and there is no comparison.



    As mentioned, they share parts with the old A500 stuff. The 46RE is based of the A518. They have totally different sized internals and smaller drums for the clutch packs.



    If you want a beefed 46RE/A518, then you need to get the larger drums/clutch packs from a 47+RE.



    Many, many of the internal parts and designs are identical. If you get a shift kit from Transgo, it universally fits all the 900,904,500,518,6** 46,47,48RE/RH,42RE, etc. But the other parts like the drums are NOT interchangeable between the smaller 900/500 (42RE) series and the larger 500/600 (46+RE)type series.
     
  9. ZacD

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    Well, before anybody gets confused, let's clarify the "series" of transmissions and what other transmissions they "relate" to...



    "A600" series were/are front drive Chrysler trannies (don't know what the current monikers for them are)



    "500" series were/are rear drive Chryslers, replaced by 40-something RH/RE monikers



    The A500 is an overdriven (4-speed), hydraulically controlled automatic placed in Jeep Grand Cherokees, Dakotas, and behind V6 powered vans and 1/2-ton 2wd Rams (did I miss anything?) and is/was based off the "A900" series 3-speed, non-overdriven automatics produced in the '60s, '70s and '80s. The A904 was used in a slew of Chrysler products, including cars, trucks, vans, etc., with slant 6s, small V8s, and AMC/Jeep products with 258 6-cylinders and some V8s. The A999 was used in other various Jeeps with 6 cylinders and V8s, and the A999 has the deeper 2.74 first gear in it. The "A500" designation was replaced by "42RH" (still hydraulically controlled), which has been replaced by an updated hybrid (partly still hydraulically controlled but mostly electronically, or computer, controlled) "42RE." Hence the "E" on the latter's designation, referencing electronically controlled.



    The A518 is an overdriven (4-speed), hydraulically controlled automatic placed in V8 Ram vans and trucks (from roughly '92-'96) and is based off the A727 3-speed automatic that Chrysler put behind larger V8s in cars and in trucks from the '60s through the early '90s. A A518 designation was dropped in favor of "46RH," at some point, and the "udpated" version of the 46RH is the hybrid (see above) 46RE and 47RE (47RE used, primarily, behind the 8.0 liter V10 and Cummins diesel), and I would guess the 48RE is just another modified/"fortified" version of the same design.



    The "old" 3-speed Chryslers (A904 or A727), Fords (C4 or C6), and GMs (Hydramatic 350 or 400), are, for the most part, tough transmissions and will take some abuse. They all can be built to withstand quite a bit of power (especially the bigger units of each manufacturer...A727, C6, 400), but for whatever reason, their modern-day, overdriven derivations haven't proven themselves to be nearly as tough, nor durable, on whole.
     
  10. Madd Ramm

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    Yeah, my post was a general post about the differences between the two that he was trying to swap, I don't have the series down pat. Thanks for the clarification. :bigthumb:
     
  11. mondtster

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    Yeah, I was considering it, but never really planned to do it due to the durability issues (especially since it is a tow vehicle).





    The series clarifications was a great one. Very well written. I knew the similarities and differences between models, but this is great for anyone who isn't sure on what they have and/or the different names people use for the trannys.



    Sorry for the thread hijack. I just figured that since the trannies were similar, this might be a good place to bring it up.
     
  12. ZacD

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    Salvage and mondster,

    I'm still trying to get in touch with the old man. The damn phone is busy out there, which means my mama's (yeah, I'm 28 and still call her mama) probably running her mouth on the phone. As soon as I have some info to pass along, I'll post it here...hijacked thread or not! :bigthumb:



    Oh, Salvage (and anybody else for that matter), look here:



    http://www.coperacingtrans.com



    That guy is an authority on Mopar rear drive trannies. He would probably know the answer to any question or know where to find any part you'd ever need, if he doesn't have it, himself, including the low gear set. I've got one of his pans on my truck...about as sturdy of a transmission pan as you're going to find (unless somebody makes a cast iron or plate steel tranny pan, which is a moot point...bang the tranny pan off something hard enough and if the pan doesn't bend/break, the case of the tranny itself will).
     
  13. SalvagExpert

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    Zdash you seem to know your crap about tranny's mopar's in specific.... while rebuilding this tranny are there any other parts things i should consider upgrading? besides the obvious of using good kevlar bands and clutches.



    i also need a new valve body, or at least completely rebuild the one i have... what are my options on that without going into manual valve bodies or anything. are there any aftermarket replacement valve bodies that still offer full automatic function.



    also i should mention my transmission is a 727 Lockup... no one seems to mention any parts difference between the lockup and non lockup as far as aftermarket companies, what parts are different that i need to buy specificly for the "LOCKUP" model?



    sorry... for the randmom confusing questions, but my tranny pretty much died and i wanna rebuild it within the next week and im trying to gather research what parts to get while im doing it.
     
  14. steved

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    I have also read about entire gearsets in 4 wheel and offroad...guy had a buggy running a 360 with a 727...I read it cause I was curious how they kept the tranny from starving for fluid under extreme angles...they had an entire "gearset" in that.



    steved
     
  15. Jambbii

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    I would get a bolt in sprag, kevlar bands and for valve bodies there are a couple options I have ran a transgo shift kit in one of mine and it was ok. I like my reverse manual cheetah the best. Maybe someone has had some experience with other ones.
     
  16. ZacD

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    [[/quote]



    I would get a bolt in sprag, kevlar bands and for valve bodies there are a couple options I have ran a transgo shift kit in one of mine and it was ok. I like my reverse manual cheetah the best. Maybe someone has had some experience with other ones.



    [/quote]



    :withstupid:



    A 727 (lockup and non-lockup models) are pretty tough, as they come from Chrysler. Unless you're wanting to build something that you're going to constantly punish, just rebuilding a 727 with "stock" parts, and upgrading to stuff like Kevlar or a "hemi" band, red or blue Alto/Raybestos clutches, getting a thrust washer kit, an upgraded sprag, quality shift kit (Transgo, Fairbanks, Hughes, etc.), upgraded band strut and lever, and making sure it's got good cooling is about all the more you need to do. They really are pretty tough trannies. There's a lot you can do, in terms of upgrades (lightened sun shells, billet steel/aluminum drums and pistons, billet servos, etc., etc.), but some of that stuff is just money you don't need to spend. A lot of that aluminum stuff (drums and such) is meant to keep the rotating mass as minimal as possible, for applications where every last bit of rotating mass removed from the drivetrain means better performance (i.e. dragracers and such). For a 4,500+ lb off road truck, a few ounces here and there isn't going to make a significant difference. I would do what is mentioned above.



    Do you need lockup? There's not a big, big difference in the trannies, but a lockup case does have ports in the valve body and pump for the requisite fluid needed for the lockup in the converter. Beyond that, and a few other details, the biggest difference is the converter, itself. Obviously one has a lockup clutch in it and the other doesn't. If you're not driving the truck on the highway much or at highway speeds (50+), and depending on how much gear and tire you have, lockup probably isn't necessary nor needed. If you don't need lockup, I'd just as soon get a non-lockup core and build it.
     
  17. SalvagExpert

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    im actually quite fond of my lockup.... being a heavy truck with no OD, that lockup really saves my a$$ on the highway.... this is my daily driver and it gets alot of highway miles. if possible id like to keep the lockup.



    but i dunno what options i have since im pretty certain the valve body is dead, as well as the torque conveter.

    and if no one makes an aftermarket valve body, i dont even want to think what the price is for a replacement valve body from the dealership. is it possible to rebuild a valve body?



    also as far as internals go, i was just going to buy one of the TCI super overhall kits with all new bands, steels, clutches, gaskets and what not. will all that internal stuff work on my transmission?
     
  18. ZacD

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    Yeah, it'll all work and should be all you need.



    Yes, you can rebuild a valve body and any reputable builder/shop will do so when they rebuild the transmission. A lot of crap (friction material and shrapnel...if "hard parts" were coming apart) can get lodged in the valve body. Many times when a transmission stops working correctly or shifting correctly, it is because something is lodged in the valve body. Now, "rebuilding" the valve body usually consists of taking it apart and cleaning it, basically, and replacing the gasket(s) between the valve body and the valve body plate, if the particular transmission has one, but while you have it off and apart, I would recommend you install some fahsion of a shift improvement kit in it. Many people think of shift kits as being only for/applied to "performance" oriented stuff. That's not the case. Shift improvement kit means exactly what it says, and can eliminate/reduce flair up between gears, make the shifts quicker/firmer, etc., etc. Of course, there's different "levels" you can go, with springs and such, to achieve whatever results you want. You can simply quicken & stiffen up the shifts a bit over stock or you can put springs in there that will cause the whole deal to jar your teeth every time the tranny shifts. The latter, obviously, isn't recommended.



    With respect to your converter, make sure you get a quality rebuilt converter. Absolutely do not reuse the old one. Beyond the fact that it is probably close to being "shot," if not already, it'll be full of fluid that you can't get out of it (unless you open it up, and at that point you might as well rebuild it, anyhow, which a converter shop will have to do), and that fluid is liable to have some crap/junk in it.



    Lastly, make sure you flush the tranny cooler and lines in the truck. There's a possibility there's some debris in the lines and/or cooler, itself, as well.



    EDIT: Given what you said about the use for your truck, then yeah, I'd rebuild the unit you have or find another lock-up unit to rebuild (given you want to keep the lock-up function/feature). The unfortunate thing about "old" trannies like the 727 and those 3 speed automatics I mentioned in prior posts is, obviously, they aren't overdriven or don't have an overdriven "gear." The good thing about the 727 and all those trannies I mentioned, previously, is they are, all things being equal, pretty damn tough.



    BTW, any reputable local shop should be able to help you or anybody that reads this thread out, whether it's a shop that mainly deals in daily drivers or whether it's a shop that specializes in performance/special-application type stuff. Chances are, if they've been in business for a while, somebody in that shop knows a thing or two about modifying/strengthening particular models of domestic rear-drive trannies.
     

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