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408 Stroker vs. V10 swap

Discussion in 'Dodge 4x4' started by swirvin21, Aug 5, 2009.

  1. swirvin21

    swirvin21
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    Time to make a decision. My plenum gasket is toast and before I start the repair I want to see what ya'll think will best suit my uses.



    Stroke the 360 to 408, upgrade the current 360 w/ basic bolt on parts and heads, or full out swap?



    Currently: 1998 2500 stock motor, rebuilt trans + shift kit only (HD tow package), upgraded axles, 4.88s & ARBs



    What I use it for: I tow my RV 8K, but want to have capability to 10-12K. No daily driver, toy only. Use for search and rescue, moderate wheeling, mainly trail type/rocks, maybe some minor mud, no bogs.



    Reason I'm asking before the plenum is I want the Edelbrock Airgap FI. No point in spending the coin if a V10 or diesel would be better. V10 or 12/24V Cummins should swap in without any major fabrication.



    Stroking the 360 gives power(costly power), but leaves me with the 46RE. :wall: Cummins requires everything changed, but no weak points, just extra weight. Though it makes my 35s w/ 4.88s overkill. V10 is middle ground in my opinion, unless I score a Viper motor and get the best of both.



    I know everyone has an opinion on this one. Keep in mind cost, reliability and replacement parts though. I hear the V10 is tough to score parts.
     

  2. NewMexico Ram

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    Its depends on how much money you want to spend, there is a huge cost difference between stroking you're current 360 and just putting some bolt on's on it.
     

  3. swirvin21

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    I'm really just trying to gauge cost to benefit at this point. I know I can rebuilt my 360 myself for about $2000-3000 and get alot of extra oommph, but I'm not sure it will get me what I want for towing performance. I'd really like to be able to pull 8-10K up hills without having to speed up to 75 on the preceeding downhill in over to avoid dropping below 50. I'm not expecting too speed up on the uphills, but with 8K I shouldn't be dropping down to 50. I'm worried I'll spend the money to upgrade the 360 only to be disappointed and have to stroke or swap to be satisfied. I think the other part is wanting to get rid of the 46RE and bump up to a 47, just like everyone on this site. I use more and more 47 parts on each rebuild, but I just can't justify dropping $3000 on a tranny upgrade to one of the super kits, when I could just swap the whole drivetrain of a Cummins 2nd gen.



    If I plan a 360 rebuild right. I can replace the intake, heads, headers, TB and other bolt ons with parts suitable to a stroker. And then do the crank, cam and pistons on the final push. But we're still talking $5000.



    I don't hear a lot of people towing on their stroker, so part of me just wants to swap in a Cummins drivetrain and be done with it. I don't hear a lot of negatives to a Cummins swap. Could get a salvage truck for $2000-4000 and switch it all over the winter.
     
  4. NewMexico Ram

    NewMexico Ram
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    If your really wanting to be able to have that good of towing capabilities then i think you would only be satisfied with a cummins.
     
  5. swirvin21

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    Part of me was really hoping that someone would tell me they tow that much with their 360 with a few upgrades and at least feel comfortable on the drive :bluecry:
     
  6. Ramatude

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    Cummins = built for towing

    360 = i wanted a big loud cool lookin truck but cant tow much.
     
  7. swirvin21

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    I tow my RV at most 4-6 times per year no more than 500-1000 round trip. I've been towing with a badly blown plenum, so my performance is even lower than normal. I will be purchasing or building a tow rig in the next 4-6 years, because I cannot run a gooseneck or 5th wheel on a lifted truck and I will be towing heavy. Right now I'm close to the top @ 3" and 35" tires. So after talking with some folks here I think a 408 is the best choice.



    The plan is to go ahead and build the upper portion now, save up an do the block and stroker work next year. Here's what I want to start. Plan on ordering some through Hughes and look around for deals. I'm trying to buy stuff that will support and complement the 408.



    Iron Ram Heads w/ Harland Sharp 1.7 roller rockers

    Edelbrock Air Gap FI - Hughes

    try to find some tri-y or more torque headers

    52mm Throttle body (I know this is good for towing on the 360, but is it too small for a 408???)

    Electric fans- I need a recommendation on this one!



    Want to have the upper end done by Halloween or Thanksgiving.
     
  8. 777

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    Here are some numbers for you, I just had my engine stroked to 408. 485#ft at 3800 rpm, and 410hp at 5000 rpm.



    This engine was built with forged crank, rods, and 9:1 cr pistons, a Hughes Main Stud girdle, Hughes Super Prepped heads, Hughes cam HER1828AL (0.544" lift, 218 degrees duration intake / 228 degrees duration exhaust),and Harland Sharp 1:6 roller rockers. It was run on the dyno with an Edelbrock AirGap manifold and a Holley 750. Once the engine goes in the truck, it will have the Hughes FI AirGap manifold and 24# injectors. This will all be pulled together by an SCT tuner.



    This engine was built mostly for trail riding, some mud, and hills, as well as Grin factor when driving for general run around. While the truck is now more toy than anything, I still use it for general purposes. The power band is relatively low, right where I wanted it. I doubt it will ever see 6000 rpm.



    I'm guessing that something similar may work for you, but it wasn't cheap. I'm thinking converting your truck to a Cummins wouldn't be cheap, either.



    Good luck with it.
     
  9. swirvin21

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    Sounds similar to what I wanted to do, I like a lot of the Hughes stuff and have heard a lot of good things about them, a few bad, but only a few. Sounds like they provided most of the parts, who did the block work? Local or sent out to Hughes or someone else? I think Hughes is way expensive for their short block, almost $4K, using your core. I've found other short blocks for $2100 cast crank.



    Since you're not planning on pushing high revs, was the forged crank really necessary? And the heads are the iron RT's with the Hughes Super Prep package, not the alums, right? I'm assuming you put 1.6 RR on the heads and a larger TB (52 or 55). Any other upgrades? Rough cost of the 408??



    KRC has a deal on the SCT tuner right now. $399. http://www.krcperformance.com/krc/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=44&Itemid=2
     
  10. djgaston

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    V10 stock numbers: 300 hp, 450 ft.lbs of torque. Stock. 400 ft.lbs of torque at an idle.



    Spend about $500 on it and those numbers go way up. Plus you have a stock motor, low compression, arguably the best torque curve of any truck motor ever, and it's reliable as hell.



    A diesel is good for towing but sucks for everything else. A V10 can pull whatever you want it to pull and still be a great daily driver without all of the possible issues that come with a diesel. High compression and a turbocharger do not equal reliability. Like you said, the gears you have won't go with a diesel anyway.



    Or you could spend 3 to 5 grand on a V8 and still not have as much power as I have in my stock V10.



    I would get a truck V10, not a Viper V10, if you want to tow with the truck. That is what the "Ram Tough" V10 was made to do. The Viper V10 is a great motor but puts way more emphasis on going fast, even though the 500 ft.lbs of torque would make you think otherwise.



    I see V10 motor and transmission combos on Ebay from time to time. Finding a 47RE is pretty easy anyway so just keep your eyes out for a V10 motor (the newer, the better, 94 models had some issues with heads cracking but it was only a problem in those early models) and just buy a transmission for it when you can. Then you've already got the 241 transfer case and the axles so you would be set.
     
  11. 777

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    The short block was done by a local machine shop. They sourced the crank, rods, and pistons, blueprinted and balanced it. They said it took quite a lot of work to get it balanced.



    The forged parts are likely overkill, at least for now. Like most trucks/toys, it is an on going project. I can forsee down the road stronger axles, transfer case, etc., which then invites a possible supercharger, or nitrous, who knows? Bottom line, since it was apart, I figured I'd just do this once (Hopefully!) I used to be an aircraft mechanic, though that was a lifetime ago. I guess that background sort of influenced my penchant for a bit of overkill.



    The heads are the Hughes Iron Ram Super Prepped package. A few months back they had a special on them for $999/pair, I believe. I think they start life as EQ heads, and Hughes warms them over a bit, and assembles them.



    The throttle body is a Fastman 52mm. Most of the other mods are on my signature line. I've probably got about 8k into it. That also includes things like having most of the accessories rebuilt, the headers were re-ceramic coated, etc. The Dyno run wasn't cheap either, but I really wanted to know where the power was, and approximately what it was. Everyone tried to get me to go with a bigger cam, but I really wanted the power in a more usable range. I likely gave up some power, but it came in right where I wanted it, so I am very happy with it. Plus, I can keep my almost new torque converter now. Just about everything in the engine bay will be as good or better than new.



    The Tranny was redone late last year, and I had that beefed so it would take the torque of an engine like this, I just didn't expect to do the engine quite so soon. That includes a heavy duty billet towing type torque converter.



    That's about it, if you have any questions, I'll try to answer. This could certainly be done cheaper by going with cast components, rebuilding your heads with a little pocket porting, modifying your kegger, a cam similar to the one I chose, stock rockers, and using an SCT tuner to get the most of it all. It would still be a strong engine, and likely last a long time. I would think 5k or less. Just a thought.
     
  12. swirvin21

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    $8K is pretty rough 777...$5K is still steep. I'm thinking I could do the short block w/ stroker kit for $2200, $500 Airgap FI, $750-1000 heads, $300 roller rockers, found some headers for $100, miscellaneous sensors/etc $200, reflash or SCT $500 = $4550 low, probably closer to $5K. Maybe get it into the $4K high by getting someone local to do the block work and ditching the intake and prepped heads.



    Now I could spread that out over time and rebuild the upper now and do the short block later, but I still would have another $2000 minimum in tranny upgrades as I have no 47 parts, just shift kit.



    Danny, you got me thinking about the V10 now...especially w/ 47Re capability. Anyone on here done the swap? What upgrades were you saying for $500?



    I know the V10 Ram engine is HEAVY. So I'd have to get diesel/V10 front springs, but otherwise shouldn't change much, right? Driveshaft changes maybe. Is the radiator the same, I've already got an all Aluminum and just bought everything for a electric fan swap. Since I've got the 2500, should just be pretty simple right?



    Only thing I've heard bad about the V10 is that parts are terrible and very limited, true??
     
  13. 17cumminsboy

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    here's my swap.

    http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59170



    gas springs would be fine i'll still have mine in.
     
  14. Tango

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    I feel your pain. I ran a gasser on my ranch for years (3 engines 5 transmissions) cause I loved the suspension. It is way better than the diesel's....



    No way would I ever do that again. Diesel is the way to go for hauling.



    Personally i would fix your truck and off it.. and get a diesel while the prices are low..if you can afford the upgrade. You may loose a few dollars on the gasser, but with the savings on the diesel you will by way ahead in life.
     
  15. 777

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    I agree, it starts adding up and gets expensive fairly quickly. About the cheapest thing I can think of would be to pull your engine apart and give it a close inspection. If it looks good, hone the cylinders, re-ring it, all new bearings, timing chain, and water pump. I looked at a Comp Cams program I had on my computer, and they show a cam, P/N 20-608-9 that might help. It shows a power curve of almost 270 hp at 4000 rpm, not much of a bump, but about 450 #ft at 2000 rpm. That is a big bump in torque. That was using some assumptions like small tube headers with cat and muffler, stock intake, pocket porting on the heads. Obviously any other improvements like intake or computer will only add to this. This might not be enough for you, but it's a thought.



    Good luck with it, whether you rebuild, swap, or look for a new truck.
     
  16. swirvin21

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    I've started researching the V10 and have thrown out the Cummins option. Though a Cummins would be great, it's a much more involved swap (turbo, intercooler/radiator, full fuel system, full exhaust and I would have to change my gears otherwise I would be spinning all the time on 4.88s).



    So, changed the title on the post. 408 Stroker vs V10 swap. I like that with the V10 I can tow better than the 408, has the stronger 47RE and requires significantly less than the Cummins to swap.



    Can't find a lot of info on the swap to a V10, but sounds relatively straight forward. Do I have to use the V10 radiator? I already have $$ in a new alum shroud, dual 16" fans and an all aluminum rad for my V8, would like to keep if possible.



    Anybody have a list of what I need?

    donor V10 w/ everything, wiring harness, computer, trans, (I can use my 241), some exhaust mods, possibly radiator (hope not), some sort of air filter setup.



    Essentially I'm looking for a donor truck, but wanted to know what I need to get off it. I've found a used V10 on EBay for $1400, but hope I can find a donor for $2000-2500.
     
  17. v10sport

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    Thats 98 older v10s. 99 to 02 were 310 horse 450 torque :smash:



    V10 tows Well, It makes more torque and HP than stock 12V and early 24 valves. Diesel will get better mileage towing. Empty ny old v10 gets the same mileage as my 07. V10 was funner to drive
     
  18. ZacD

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    488 cubes > 408 cubes



    /story
     
  19. shawnsack

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    i personaly made the swap from a v8 to a v10 and i am more than happy and i do pretty much what your talking bout some tow and play but not a daily driver... great torque curve and plenty of power... mine is backed by an nv4500 though not an automatic watch out even though you have the 241 behind ur gas truck its only a 23 spline so make sure it matches your tranny... mine didnt... my nv4500 had the heavier output shaft that the diesels have... and the best part is u can use your factory fuel pump and lines and all that stuff all you have to do is change your computer and engine harness and radiator everything else bolts into place
     
  20. djgaston

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    V10sport, next time I will just page you and you can answer any V10-related questions. I'll never get this all straight. :rotfl:



    Well, I guess $500 would be a stretch. For really good V10 performance, you just need to do a few simple mods. Get a computer upgrade. That's like $500 by itself if you get the SCT Tuner. Get a 52 mm throttle body. $250. Get a K&N FIPK, $350. If you can open up the exhaust a little, that will help, but mostly just getting more air and fuel into that big ass motor will add a ton of power. They are pretty corked up from the factory.



    Parts aren't hard to find. Harder than a V8, yes. V10sport had started a list of aftermarket performance parts on here and while I doubt that list will keep growing, it's not like you need to do a lot to these motors. If you ever wanted to go nuts, you could start throwing Viper parts at it. As far as finding replacement parts like thermostats, coil packs, etc., that is all easy. Probably a bit more costly than standard V8 parts but not in the diesel parts range.



    I'm not sure anybody on here has done a V10 swap but I think one or two people have. Might look around on DTO or some of those other Ram performance-related forums.
     

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